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Author Topic: Recommended modern Chinese coin investments #19 - Don't buy ungraded coins  (Read 3513 times)
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badon
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« on: 2010 Dec 26, 08:49:53 pm »



Proof pandas are hot. Non-proof "BU" pandas are hot. Culturally significant coins are hot. Non-culturally significant coins are hot. I can't find anything anymore that isn't hot right now. It seems that the coins are being bought up faster than they're becoming available, so availability is dwindling to nothing very quickly.

With the decrease in supply of investment-grade coins that are certified from NGC and PCGS, interest is turning towards raw, ungraded coins. I urge you to resist this temptation. I am an expert-level collector and investor of rare coins, and even I don't bother with ungraded coins, even though I have the necessary expertise to do so safely, AND I have deep enough pockets to stay in the game if I get stuck with fakes or low-grade coins.

Many ungraded coins have already been submitted for grading, where they received low grades. They were then cut out of their NGC or PCGS holders and resealed to make them look like originally-sealed coins. People buying those "original" coins have high hopes that they'll get pristine specimens at bargain prices that will grade well at NGC and PCGS, when in fact, they're getting all the junky rejects.

Even if you do find a few nice coins, what do you do with your junk coins, assuming you're not a criminal that reseals coins? You have to sell them, of course. You'll have to buy a lot of coins to find the few, highest graded ones for your own portfolio, and then you'll have to put the rest back on the market, possibly at a loss, so you can recover some cash to buy more coins. What you've become is a dealer. The only good time for someone to start buying ungraded coins is if you are becoming a dealer, instead of just simply an investor or collector.

The dealer makes his money through his time, salesmanship, superior competitive information, superior competitive expertise, and a trusting customer base. An investor makes his money by sitting on a coin and doing nothing. Which job sounds easier to you? Many people have the cash, time, expertise, and salesmanship ability to become a dealer. What almost everyone lacks is the superior information required to be competitive in a business with many other players who have been doing it longer than you.

Chances are, if you have the cash income necessary for investing, your time is better spent focusing on producing the cash, while keeping the investments on the side, with much less of your attention required.

In summary, if you want to buy raw coins, you must understand that doing so will probably make you a dealer, and you have the assets and abilities required to make it a successful business through good times and bad(!), you can do very well. Just be aware that the Chinese coin market is being consolidated and dominated by bigger players, so it's unlikely you'll be in the game for long once they push you out. Realize that there are lots of people like myself who have made the decision not to enter the market as a dealer, for many very good reasons.

Focus on your day job to raise cash for buying coins, and buy the best coins you can afford, after the dealers have done the work of finding them for you.

There has been talk of the possibility of a slowdown, but every indication is that the market is still accelerating at an incredible pace. People in other markets are bragging about making 10% on their investments in months or years, while many of the Chinese coins I have been recommending are gaining that much daily or weekly! In a few cases, they're gaining the equivalent of that much HOURLY!

I still believe the slowdown is coming in January or February, but that doesn't mean that prices will necessarily be cheaper then - they may just simply slow down in the rate that the prices are increasing. The best part about this market is that, regardless of whether there's an eventual slowdown or not, the entire market is immature and has a LONG way to go before prices reach a FAIR level. Any talk of bubbles at this point is complete nonsense.

Coins sold from the Recommended modern Chinese coin investments #18 article, total: $1716.48

1984 27 g silver panda NGC PF 69 UC for $1613.88 Dec 26, 2010
2010 1 oz silver panda PCGS MS 70 for $102.60 Dec 26, 2010

People are making a lot of money investing in the coins on these lists. You can see the coins that have sold here in the articles themselves, and you can see the coins making their buyers rich in the LBC makes me rich thread. It's exciting to find out who's buying the coins in these recommendation lists, and it's fun to share your successful buys!

Here's some recent articles of mine that can provide some guidance for investing in the current and coming market conditions:

* Wealth preservation: USA vs. China (By Zerosum)
* Coins are the hot new investment
* 5 criteria to determine if a coin is a good investment
* 13 coin facts to learn for beginning investors of modern Chinese coins
* My First Chinese Panda Coin Purchase (By Tamo42)
* Modern Chinese coin investment strategy
* Don't be the "whale" that pays too much for an investment coin
* Modern Chinese coin commentary and market predictions - 2010-Dec-15
* What makes people buy up all the Chinese panda coins?
* Investing in rare modern Chinese coins, some questions answered
* Cash is king for 2011 - Get ready for the coming bargain hunt
* Foresight: Gold, silver, coins, etc will weaken after January or February 2011
* Rumor: Modern Chinese coin charts coming out soon
* Why does this business site talk so much about investments?
* The chess game of rich vs. poor

If you have questions about investing in any of these coins, please ask. If you find a coin that seems like it should be listed here, but isn't, please tell me about it. I frequently wait to list a coin here until I've had time to do the proper research on it that's needed for me to give you the basic facts on each coin. If you'd like to see info faster on a particular coin, I can make it a higher priority for you. I've noticed people don't like asking questions, because they don't want anyone else to know they're thinking of buying a particular coin. People don't want to talk about the coins they're interested in due to "coin snatchers" grabbing them. Competition for the investment-grade coins listed in these articles is fierce!



"Common" pandas



2001-D 1 oz silver panda NGC MS 69

These have been increasing up to around the $160 range. This one is offered with an auction starting price of $99 and a Buy-It-Now price of $125, which is a fair deal.

2003 1 oz silver panda NGC MS 70

These are not rare in average grades, but all pandas have low mintages compared to the coins they're compared with from smaller countries around the world, so I think they're a good investment, especially in high grades. Here's a 70 graded coin with a starting price of 99 cents. I think the fair value of this coin is between $120 and $200, with it most likely to sell for around $150. But, with all the hype for 2003 pandas, it could go higher.

After I posted about these in Recommended modern Chinese coin investments - 2010-Dec-24 to mention my uncertainty about why these were increasing in value so fast, one of LBC's researchers, groovemachine, discovered what was happening and wrote an article just 6 hours later: 2003 Chinese Panda Variety Revealed. That article by groovemachine is the first published work that details the discovery of a very rare variety of 2003 panda. It seems lots of people knew about it already, but they weren't sharing their information so they could buy up all the coins before the world finds out what's going on. Thanks to LBC and groovemachine, the world knows!

2008 1 oz silver panda PCGS MS 70

2010 pandas are the only date that always seem to be available at any time in a 70 grade. Older dates seem to have already been bought up. 2 of these 2008 coins have sold recently for increasing prices of $150 and $185. Naturally, this one is offered at a higher price.

2009 1 oz gold panda NGC MS 70

2009 1 oz gold panda NGC MS 70

Gold pandas in a 70 grade seem to be very underpriced compared to their silver counterparts. At a minimum, even a common date silver panda in a 70 grade will sell for 50% more than the same coin in a 69 grade. Recently, the premiums I have been seeing for all modern Chinese coins has increased from 50% to something more like 100% to 500%, depending on the coin, with rarer coins having higher premiums. Right now, the premium on these 2009 gold pandas offered for $1850 and $18 is only $300, which works out to about 20% of the total price of the coin, with 69 versions being offered and selling for around $1550.

If the bullion value is subtracted, then the figures become even more exaggerated. The 2010 silver pandas sell for about $60 in a 69 grade, with roughly $30 of that being the numismatic value. In 70 grade, they've been selling for about $120 lately, with about $90 of that being numismatic value. So, comparing apples to apples, and numismatic value to numismatic value, a 2010 silver panda in a 70 grade has about a 300% premium over coin with a 69 grade.

That means the 2009 coins listed here ought to be selling for far more money than they're being offered for, and that makes them a good investment. I feel this investment is more speculative, and dependent on the fickleness of the market, but as mundane an common as 2009 coins are, I think it presents a great opportunity to make high profits, with a little more risk than there is with the coins that I usually post, since we're entirely dependent on the market's demand for grade rarity,  which may or may not materialize. 2009 coins by themselves are not rare, so if nobody cares about the 70 grade, then the profits won't come. I think the risk is worth it, however, since I have been watching demand for 70 coins steadily and reliably increasing, as expected.

The mintage is 160,000 coins, with less than 1 in 3 coins receiving a 70 grade, and 200 total NGC coins graded MS 70. Since these coins are not rare, I would take profits on them once the premium reaches 100%, and put the earnings into rarer coins.

2010 1 oz silver pandas in MS 70

One of my readers has noticed that 69 graded 2010 coins have been moving up in value, while 70 graded 2010 coins have been dropping in value. The reason why is that both 69 and 70 coins are being put on the market at an increased pace by just one seller. 69 coins are easy to sell because they're reasonably cheap, and everyone would like to have one. 70 coins, on the other hand, require the right kind of discriminating buyer who appreciates the finest of everything. In other words, you can flood the market with 69's and the price will keep going up, but you can't do that with 70 coins that cost more than double the price of a 69, because most people will just take the 69 instead.

What that means is that, while 69 coins are increasing in value as expected, while 70 coins are dropping WHEN THEY SHOULDN'T, and that's a recipe for a good investment. Your strategy should be to buy up the 70 coins for bargain prices, and later take profits just one at a time to keep prices high. Anything you get for under $125 is a good buy, but you should be able to get one under $110.



Rare gold BU pandas



1982 1 oz gold panda NGC MS 69

1982 gold panda set NGC MS 69

1982 1/2 oz gold panda NGC MS 69

I've been ignoring 1982 pandas for a long time, but I can't ignore them anymore. When they first came out near the end of the 1980's gold bubble, and before the numismatics boom of the late 1980's and 1990's, they were meant to be just ordinary bullion. China just wanted to make a gold bullion round to sell some of their gold production, so not much effort was put into the the design. The coins were frequently handled, dropped, scratched, dented, etc because no one thought they would end up being valuable in high grades.

It's technically only a medal, not a coin, because it has no face value. When it became more popular than expected, collectors requested that China put a face value on all the standard series pandas that followed. The Chinese government later retroactively insisted that the 1982 pandas are legal tender, though I don't know exactly what the face value is supposed to be.

The reason why a face value is so important is because legal tender anti-counterfeiting laws protect collectors by harshly punishing anyone that makes a fake. Medals have no such legal protection. However, China has had many governments during its history, and many different currencies. I have suspected that the details about whether a collectible metal disc is still legal tender or not matters comparatively little to Chinese people who have a long history of just using gold and silver in standard weights, instead of government-created things like dollars, yuan, renminbi, etc. However, medals without a face value have been slower to increase in value than the legal tender coins, so I haven't recommended them much in the past.

All that is changing. A few days ago, a medal sold for over $15,000 when it was expected to sell for $10,000. The bidding competition was unusually fierce, and coming from experienced collectors and investors with serious money to spend on coins. I have noticed the 1982 pandas have doubled in value during the last few months, and although they still don't seem to be increasing as fast as the other coins, I think that's actually an illusion. The other coins increase in spurts, as their popularity increases or decreases. The 1982 coins have always been popular, and they've been steadily increasing in value almost unnoticed.

When looking at the NGC grading populations for these "coins", it's clear they're rare in high grades. There are only 76 1/10 oz, 214 1/4 oz, 64 1/2 oz, and 79 1 oz coins graded in MS 69. Of those 4 sizes, the only one that isn't very rare is the 1/4 oz coin. The mintages for all of them are somewhat high compared to the mintages on the other coins I've been recommending, but for all but the 1/4 oz coin, they have good "grade rarity" and enormous popularity that makes them good investments. They're all extremely hard to find in a 69 grade, and complete sets are rarely seen. The 1/2 oz coin is the rarest overall, but the 1 oz coin has the most "grade rarity".

These prices are high, but where else can you find them in a 69 grade? There's just not enough of them out there. The 1 oz gold coin, for example, should have around 2500 coins on the entire planet that would grade 69 or better. That's NOT a lot of coins! I believe the 1982 pandas are a good investment. They may or may not perform as well as legal tender coins over the long term, but I think you'll have no trouble at all taking a profit and putting your money into something else if the high demand for medals does not continue. 1982 pandas are fortunately very easy to sell due to their high popularity.

1998 1 oz gold large date panda NGC MS 69

The seller of this coin has a reputation for occasionally overpricing coins to ridiculous values. This coin was one of those coins. WAS! The value of this coin is rising so fast, $10,000+ is becoming a fair price to pay. It's investment grade, individual, and most importantly, it's available. The 1998 large date coins also happen to be the rarest of all BU pandas. I know who has these coins, and I know they're not selling until the sets reach $30,000+. That will probably happen within 18 months or less, and although people will tell you this coin is ridiculously overpriced now, in a few months it will seem like a bargain. Pay the price you have to pay, it's worth it. A complete set of 1/20 oz to 1 oz coins will someday cost you $100,000 or more. $10k for the largest piece in the set (but not the rarest) is no big deal. Buy them when you find them, pay what you have to pay, and hold them tightly.

1999 1 oz gold large date serif 1 panda NGC MS 69

This is an extremely rare panda with an extremely high price. It was initially offered for $5999, and I ignored it. The seller dropped the price to $4999, which makes me wiling to recommend it here in this list. This is so irritating with all of these high prices on rare pandas, but this seller is the only one that is offering this coin. So, whatever they want for it, that's the price. If you want the best investment-grade coins, you have to pay what you have to pay. Don't worry about overpaying, as long as you get the coin, and you can hold it for the long term. In due time, you will be RICHLY rewarded. When it comes time to sell, you will be glad you're selling a coin that you can ask any price you want for it.



Proof silver pandas



All the early silver proof pandas are what I like to call $10,000 coins, because I firmly believe within the next decade, you will have to pay $10k+ to obtain one. The silver proof pandas here meet at least 4 of the 5 criteria to determine if a coin is a good investment. The only one they may not meet is the one about conservation, which is less important as long as the coin looks good despite its age. If any of the coins have white spots when you receive them, you should probably return it for a refund. The white spots may be correctable through conservation, but that's the seller's problem, not yours.

Now that the issue of which silver proof panda coin is the rarest seems to have been settled, the 1994  and the 1996 have increased rapidly in value. However, it turns out that all three of the top coins - the 1994, 1995, and the 1996 - have similarly small actual mintages. There's no one coin that is dramatically rarer than any of the others. The information I have says that all of them have mintages of around 7000 to 8000 coins. So, buy them all up whenever you can, as your cash holdings allow.

1989 1 oz silver proof panda NGC PF 69 UC

This is the most common of the proof silver pandas. I remember when I could buy these for around $15 to $25. They stayed valued at around $40 to $50 for a long time, and it's amazing to see them being offered at around $200 now. 2 of these have sold recently for $199, and prior to those two, this coin has sold for $250, and price guides value these at around that level too. I think $199 is a good price on this coin. They have a mintage of 25,000 and 214 known so far that are graded 69.

1990 1 oz silver proof panda NGC PF 69 UC

The mintage is 20,000 and 212 are known graded 69 at NGC, and 69 graded coins have sold recently for $268 and $305.02 (both from this list). Price guides have been saying they should be selling for half that amount, but it looks like prices have approximately doubled in the last few weeks. Given its popularity, rarity, and overall excellent investment potential, I believe this coin is reasonably priced at $299, and will sell for more once the last one is gone. I know a lot of people are watching this coin, but haven't bought because they think it's too expensive, but they will regret it when they have to pay even more to obtain one.

1992 1 oz silver proof panda NGC PF 69 UC

The official mintage for this coin is 20,000 but is probably lower, as is often the case for early coins. Prices have been steadily increasing, and this one has sold for between $278 for a 69 specimen, to a whopping $738 for a damaged, ungraded coin. The $738 price was ridiculous, but it's a clue as to how crazy people get sometimes. The damage on the $738 coin is a torch sloppily engraved into it by a private coin dealer in Germany when the coin was first released. 3000 of them were damaged by the torch engraving, and word hasn't quite made it to all the collectors in China that the torch isn't supposed to be there. The Chinese dealers seem to be making good money by not telling them too!

So, we know that 3000 of these coins were damaged right when they were released, and I suspect that the Chinese dealers may be getting greedy, and they could be carving their own little torches into the surviving coins to try to score a $700+ price tag on a damaged coin. That means that, in addition to probably having a lower mintage than the official figures suggest, we already know that at least 3000 coins have been damaged. That makes this coin a good investment, because it doesn't cost more than coins that weren't damaged on a large scale.

The $349 price is quite a bit higher than the last fair sale price of $275, but that's typical of all the silver proof pandas. I would grab this coin before word spreads that the little torch coins are actually damaged coins, and pristine coins are much rarer than people have thought. Only 109 have been graded a 69, which is about half as many as expected - but the coin does not cost twice as much! This coin is underpriced, and a good investment. Buy them when you find them.

1994 1 oz silver proof panda PCGS PR 69 DCAM

The price of these 1994 coins were increased by the seller from $749 to $888, and then again to $1188. There's a little secret floating around about these coins. The 1994 proof is the rarest of the proof pandas! At first, people thought it was the 1996 because that's what the official mintage indicated. Then, it became clear that the 1995 was rarer than the 1996. But now, it appears the 1994 is the rarest of them all.

1995 1 oz silver proof panda NGC PF 69 UC

The price of these has zoomed from around $450 to the present $1099 price on this listing. Sellers increased the price, and buyers keep buying them. If sellers don't drastically increase their prices, they won't have any inventory left. These are HOT!

1996 1 oz silver proof panda NGC PF 69 UC

This is one of the rarest silver pandas. It's hard to find at a reasonable price. The prices have been increasing strongly, just like the 1995 and 1994. They were selling for around $150 just a few months ago! These are an AWESOME investment. There's not much left for proof pandas at bargain prices. You have to pay what you have to pay, if you want to get one.



Palladium pandas



2004 1/2 oz palladium panda NGC PF 69 UC

The 1/2 oz palladium pandas in a 69 grade have been selling strongly at above $900 recently. Palladium is extremely popular right now worldwide, but especially in China. The 69 graded coins used to sell for around $700, but prices are rising faster than I expected, and they have started selling for almost $1200 UNGRADED. They're very popular.

2005 1/2 oz palladium panda NGC PF 70

These have been selling for around $1400 lately, so this coin is underpriced at the Buy-It-Now price of $1295. It's been listed for a while now - The only reason it took me so long to find it, and the reason no one has bought it yet, is because it's listed in the the category for American coins. Whoops. Grab it! The label also incorrectly says MS, when it should say PF because the coin is a proof coin.



Rare lunar coins



1999 1/2 oz gold rabbit PCGS PR 69 DCAM

This coin is too expensive at $4300 - but it's the only one available. I posted about others that were available for half as much just a few days ago, but they're gone, so $4300 is your new price for those who weren't the lucky buyers of those other recommendations. This coin has a mintage of only 2300 coins, so I have no doubt you'll be able to sell it for $10k+ within a few years or sooner, though I do not recommend planning on selling it at that price because it could go FAR higher. You "overpay" now for a good coin just to get it, and then make your profits later. It's frustrating this price is so dramatically higher than the last coins that sold, but you won't get good coins if you don't pay what you have to pay to get them.

In short, is $4300 an unfair price to pay for a coin that was selling for around $2500 to $3000 only one week ago? No, it is not unfair at all. Expensive, yes, but if you have the cash, buy this coin. It will only cost you more later.



Other investment grade coins



1993 1/2 oz gold Mao Tse-Tung NGC PF 69 UC

This coin is expensive. It has an official mintage of 5000, but probably fewer pieces were actually minted. The pricing information out there says it should be priced about $1000 lower than it is. People have made many offers on this coin, trying to get it at a cheaper price. The problem is, the price information people are relying on is for ungraded coins. This coin has a high, investment-quality grade. I think that makes it worth the extra $1000. The unusually high number of offers made on this coin leads me to believe that the coin is very popular, and priced close to what people think it should sell for - but people are just being cheap. The best coins require aggressive buying, and $1000 here and there won't matter in the long run.

1979 1/2 oz silver matte year of the child NGC MS 69

This is a great coin being offered at a fair price. Cheapskates keep offering low-ball prices, but this coin is worth every penny of the $15,000 asking price. The last coins sold for increasingly high values of $7000 to almost $10,000 recently, and none of them were graded. This coin has a high 69 grade, a low mintage, and is extremely popular. Don't be a cheapskate, pay the full asking price and grab it before someone else does. It is worth it.

1996 1/2 oz gold invention & discovery musical instrument NGC PF 69 UC

The mintage for this coin is 404, and I believe it should easily be worth 50% more than the current asking price of $7195 RIGHT NOW. Coins with higher mintages are already selling for nearly $20,000. It will be worth far more than that in the future. It's from the very popular Invention & Discovery series that Chinese people take great pride in. The series commemorates Chinese culture and ingenuity throughout its history, and it is impressive even for non-Chinese people that have high respect for science, technology, and culture.

The price for the coin was initially offered in the $5000 to $6000 range, but the coin did not sell, and the seller relisted it at a higher price. You can bet that next time it gets relisted, it will be even more expensive.



Helpful searches



These are searches for coins, not a list of recommendations. You may find coins here that I have missed, or you might get lucky on a lowball bid in an auction. I'm not going to be able to keep track of when stuff in these searches sell, so you'll have to let me know if you invest in something from these automated searches, so I can include it in the list of other coins that have sold. It would also be appreciated if you posted your coins in the LBC makes me rich thread. Thank you very much!

Search for Chinese coins in 69 grade



Sold recommendations



Total recommendations sold: $52,246.60

Coins sold from the Recommended modern Chinese coin investments #18 article, total: $1716.48

1984 27 g silver panda NGC PF 69 UC for $1613.88 Dec 26, 2010
2010 1 oz silver panda PCGS MS 70 for $102.60 Dec 26, 2010

Coins sold from the Recommended modern Chinese coin investments - 2010-Dec-24 article, total: $2089.19 (passed $50k in sold recommended investments)

2010 1 oz silver scallop plum blossom flower tiger NGC PF 69 UC for $275 Dec 24, 2010
2010 1 oz silver panda PCGS MS 70 for $105.60 Dec 25, 2010
2010 1 oz silver panda PCGS MS 70 for $108.60 Dec 25, 2010
1995 1 oz silver proof panda NGC PF 69 UC for $799.99 Dec 24, 2010
2004 1/2 oz palladium panda NGC PF 69 UC for $800 Dec 24, 2010

Coins sold from the Recommended modern Chinese coin investments and commentary - 2010-Dec-23 article, total: $1901.60

1995 1 oz silver proof panda NGC PF 69 UC for $749 Dec 23, 2010
1996 1 oz silver proof panda NGC PF 69 UC for $569 Dec 23, 2010
2010 1 oz silver scallop plum blossom flower tiger NGC PF 69 UC for $275 Dec 23, 2010
2010 1 oz silver panda PCGS MS 70 for $103.60 Dec 23, 2010
2010 1 oz silver panda PCGS MS 70 for $102.50 Dec 23, 2010
2010 1 oz silver panda PCGS MS 70 for $102.50 Dec 23, 2010

Coins sold from the Recommended modern Chinese coin investments - 2010-Dec-21 article, total: $6892.07

1985 27 g proof panda NGC PF 69 UC for $1619 Dec 22, 2010
1989 1 oz silver proof panda NGC PF 69 UC for $199.99 Dec 22, 2010
1990 1 oz silver proof panda NGC PF 69 UC for $268 Dec 22, 2010
1990 1 oz silver proof panda PCGS PR 69 DCAM for $305.02 Dec 22, 2010
1991 1 oz silver proof panda NGC PF 69 UC for $300.02 Dec 22, 2010
1995 1 oz silver pig NGC PF 69 UC for $970 Dec 22, 2010
1995 1 oz silver proof panda NGC PF 69 UC for $655 Dec 22, 2010
2006 1 oz silver panda NGC MS 69 for $61 Dec 22, 2010
2006 1 oz silver scallop plum blossom flower dog NGC PF 69 UC for $280 Dec 22, 2010
2010 1 oz silver panda PCGS MS 69 for $102.50 Dec 22, 2010
2010 1 oz silver panda PCGS MS 69 for $105.54 Dec 22, 2010
1994 1 oz silver proof panda NGC PF 69 UC for $888 Dec 21, 2010
1996 1 oz silver proof panda NGC PF 69 UC for $569 X 2 Dec 21, 2010

Coins sold from the Recommended modern Chinese coin investments - 2010-Dec-20 article, total: $8762.24

1983 1 g gold Marco Polo NGC PF 69 UC for $402 Dec 20, 2010
1996 1 oz silver proof panda NGC PF 69 UC for $569 X 2 Dec 20, 2010
1997 1/2 oz gold scallop plum blossom flower ox PCGS PR 69 DCAM for $2988 Dec 20, 2010
1998 1/2 oz gold scallop plum blossom flower tiger NGC PF 69 UC for $3551 Dec 20, 2010
2010 1 oz silver panda NGC MS 70 for $66.89 Dec 20, 2010
2010 1 oz silver panda PCGS MS 70 for $97 Dec 20, 2010
2010 1 oz silver panda PCGS MS 70 for $109.50 Dec 20, 2010
2010 1 oz silver panda NGC MS 70 for $119 Dec 20, 2010
2010 1 oz silver panda PCGS MS 70 for $123.50 Dec 20, 2010
2010 1 oz silver panda PCGS MS 70 for $126.30 Dec 20, 2010
2010 1 oz silver panda PCGS MS 69 for $41.05 Dec 20, 2010

Coins sold from the Recommended modern Chinese coin investments - 2010-Dec-19 article, total: $16,422

1986 24 g silver empress of china clipper ship NGC MS 70 for $499.95 Dec 19, 2010
1988 1 oz silver dragon NGC PF 69 UC for $565.55 Dec 19, 2010
1988 8 g gold dragon NGC PF 69 UC for $1325 Dec 19, 2010
1989 1 oz gold snake NGC PF 69 UC for $4100 Dec 19, 2010
1989 8 g gold snake NGC PF 69 UC for $965 Dec 19, 2010
1998 1/2 oz gold small date panda NGC MS 69 for $6087 Dec 19, 2010
1999 1 oz gold small date panda for $2351.99 Dec 19, 2010
2001-D 1 oz silver panda PCGS MS 69 for $160 Dec 19, 2010
2001-D 1 oz silver panda PCGS MS 69 for $144.99 X 2 Dec 19, 2010
2010 1 oz silver panda PCGS MS 70 for $125 Dec 19, 2010
2010 1 oz silver panda PCGS MS 70 for $97.50  Dec 19, 2010

Coins sold from older articles, total: $14,463

2008 1 oz silver panda NGC MS 70 for $150 Dec 18, 2010 (LBC makes me rich)
2010 1 oz silver panda NGC MS 69 for $42.05 Dec 18, 2010
2009 1 oz silver 30th anniversary pandas NGC MS 69 X 10 for $510.95 Dec 16, 2010
1986 5 yuan soccer NGC PF 69 matte KM-140A for $3950 Dec 15, 2010
1987 5 oz silver panda NGC PF 69 UC for $800 Dec 12, 2010
1989 5 oz silver panda NGC PF 69 UC for $960 Dec 12, 2010
2000 1/2 oz gold scallop lunar dragon PCGS PF 69 DCAM for $5895 Dec 12, 2010
2010 1 oz silver panda PCGS MS 70 for $105 Dec 10, 2010
2010 1 oz silver panda PCGS MS 70 for $125 Dec 08, 2010 (LBC makes me rich)
2010 1 oz silver panda PCGS MS 70 for $125 Dec 08, 2010
1983 silver proof panda for $1800 Dec 06, 2010
« Last Edit: 2010 Dec 28, 02:34:01 am by badon » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: 2010 Dec 26, 10:48:35 pm »

Dear Badon,
Thanks for your educational info.
The country where I am living have to send coins to US to be graded. So what nearly all collectors do is buy BU pandas / coins when available and collectors in my country really have to learn fast HOW to examine coins & grade the coins themselves. We get our coins directly from China Banks / Mints.
Thanks to your advice I am going to pickup a Chinese proof coin now (still in its original glorious packaging).
Bye
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« Reply #2 on: 2010 Dec 26, 11:06:29 pm »

Congratulations on your new proof coin. It should be a profitable investment. What kind of coin did you get?

I realized that many people would disagree with me about graded and authenticated coins. There are sometimes other good reasons to not buy them, such as if there are none available in your country, but that will change. As the Chinese coin market matures, quality will become more and more important, and damaged coins will become less acceptable.

Even in the very mature American coin market, there are still a few old collectors who prefer ungraded coins, so I'm sure the same thing will happen in China. Eventually though, the best coins will rise to the top, and those coins will either be graded, or their grade will be important to determine the coin's value, even if the grading isn't done by PCGS or NGC.
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« Reply #3 on: 2010 Dec 26, 11:46:06 pm »

This is absolutely true re: graded coins.  This market is still in it's infancy and graded coins will be the most liquid and receive top dollar when the market matures.  I have seen this in plenty of other arenas.
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« Reply #4 on: 2010 Dec 27, 12:02:00 am »

Hey groovemachine, when are you going to write another article?
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« Reply #5 on: 2010 Dec 27, 01:17:20 am »

It's commemorative silver coin of 600th anniversary of Zheng He's Voyage.
Why is it a 2009 1 Kilo Silver panda is selling at a much higher price than the previous years??
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« Reply #6 on: 2010 Dec 27, 01:21:39 am »

Could you post a link to the Zheng He coin you're talking about?
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« Reply #7 on: 2010 Dec 27, 01:29:41 am »

Last Thursday, I also picked up 1 set of "2 X Arbor .999 Silver Coins which commemorate China 2003 Tree Day / Arbor". Price for the whole set (proof) is USD 194.00.
The 1 oz zheng he proof coin is more expensive USD 161.00.
Mintage for both sets is only 30,000 sets.
Were they good buys???
I also collect 1oz Pandas & Panda Proofs (5oz & 1 Kilo).
Here in my country I don't have many choices coz there are NO agent for Chinese coins.

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« Reply #8 on: 2010 Dec 27, 01:36:57 am »

http://www.china-mint.info/2005-chinese-coins.html

*Zheng He silver colored coin    10yuan    1oz    99.9%    Proof    60000 (sorry not 30,000 sets as previously posted)

*Zheng He (Ming Dynasty HongWu 4 Year 1371 - XuanDe 8 Year 1433) -- Chinese Ming Dynasty famous navigator and diplomat.

Environment Protection - Tree Planting Festival silver coin set    10yuan  x 2    1oz x 2    99.9%    Proof    30000 x 2 (30,000 sets)
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« Reply #9 on: 2010 Dec 27, 01:47:59 am »

The newer coins are more expensive due to the popularity and availability of them. The older coins are better investments though. Anything with a mintage under 30,000 is a great thing to buy. The prices you're paying are very cheap compared to proof panda coins like the 1989 1 oz silver proof panda that has a mintage of 25,000 and is being offered for $399 right now.

I think you will make more money buying the coins you have been buying, so good job in picking some nice coins. I think you got some good prices too. Those coins will cost over $1000 eventually, because they are very hard to find.
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If families are a problem for the system, then we must reject the system, not the families.
Founder of the Coin Compendium (forum, blogs, calendar, images, donate, contribute).
LBC makes you rich, with a free ebay gift certificate awarded every month!
The Coin Compendium and the china-mint.info forum, censure, disclosure.
Do not PM questions. Answers should be publicly available.
Backup is not enough. Protect your data with MultiPar.
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About me: User:Badon - MediaWiki.org
Badon effect: type 1 to 8, type 9.
I type faster on a TypeMatrix.
Use my work. Give credit.
Coin, medal, whatever!
Coin storage advice.
FreeArc is amazing.
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