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Author Topic: MCC LIST #183: 2014, collectors, pullback 9 reasons, food, coin-medal-whatever  (Read 74328 times)
LBC3716, perfulator, davidt3251, Jens (+ 1 Hidden) and 12 Guests are viewing this topic.
badon
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« Reply #3440 on: Yesterday at 07:18:56 am »

Maybe Yi Shizhong (goldfish) is the more skilled and more famous artist, but there is no denying that Zeng Chengdu's pagodas are incredible masterpieces. The fact they worked together in the same place at the same time in 1984 is really all you need to know. Their styles and skills may have been different, but they are both master engravers. You could probably count on 1 hand the number of people in the world that could do that kind of work in 1984, and maybe there is NO ONE that can do it today, other than the original masters themselves.

Another thing worth mentioning is that art prices make their biggest gains after the artist dies. That is because the "mintage" of art from that artist ends after they're gone. Art investors like known rarity just as much as coin investors do, and as long as an artist is still living, any big price gains will tempt them to come out of retirement and produce more of their art, and thus driving prices back down again.

With coins it's a bit different, because as long as the dies are in serviceable condition, more coins can be struck. IN practice, that isn't much of an issue, because the China mint has a policy of making any restrikes different from the originals. That's why the 1990 goldfish have a different "2 fish" reverse, while the 1984 goldfish have a "1 fish" reverse. It's also why the plated goldfish and pagodas are plated with gold or silver - it's the plating that makes them different from the originals.

Although some people fear restrikes like art collectors fear a living artist diluting the market with more art, historically, restrikes tend to actually be rarer and more valuable than the originals. The most famous example of that phenomenon are the 1804 silver dollars from the USA. They were actually restrikes minted in the 1830's, and some of them are more valuable than the first 1794 silver dollars I wrote about a few posts ago. That's kind of amazing if you think about it. The same is more or less true for 1913 liberty head nickels, 1964 silver peace dollars, 1933 gold St. Gaudens, etc, etc, etc.

The lesson I learn from the high priced restrikes is that "a big one" could be minted at any time. It could be minted on the first day the mint opens for business, or it could be minted tomorrow. It is difficult, but not impossible to predict which coins will be like that. Rarity is not necessarily the reason why it become "a big one". For example, the 1794 silver dollars with a population of up to 150 specimens, and that's not very rare at all compared to recently minted Chinese coins that have mintages of 30 or less. Of course, that's not even taking into account the MUCH MUCH larger potential market size for the Chinese coins, compared to the American ones.

Maybe you have "a big one" in your collection? Maybe you have 2, 3, 5, 10, or 20 of them? A pagoda set gives you 4 of them. The keys are for grade rarity, and it's the Yingxian that is the most difficult one to get in premium quality condition, with the Kaiyuan being another tough one. The Songyue and Zhenjue usually grade well.

The pagoda mintage is low enough that sometimes I wonder if the artist did the minting himself. The most difficult design was probably the Songyue, and that's the one that grades the best, if I remember correctly. The simplest design may have been the Yingxian or the Kaiyuan. When we talk about handling damage that happens at the mint, maybe the artists themselves are doing the minting, and they give extra special care to the designs that required the most work? That would be fascinating, if true. That's another interesting hypothesis that I would love to research.
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« Reply #3441 on: Yesterday at 07:45:42 am »

I think the 1984 PF 69 silver pagoda set is a great buy.   Wish i could buy it.   They are unique and one of only two silver w/ hand engraved dies.   Maybe 2 or 3 other silvers but none have been found as posted on CCF.    China Mint says 260 mintage so that is very low.  Look at prices of other silver w/ 500 or less mintage.  

That's an interesting fact about the silver pagodas and goldfish being the only silver coins from hand engraved dies. I have wondered why the silver goldfish are so rare. It's almost certain that ALL of the 1984 silver pagodas and goldfish were intended for VIP's of some kind. The silver pagodas appear to have been gifts or "bonuses" to distributors and dealers. The silver goldfish are so rare, I have no idea what they were minted for.

If the artists themselves struck some of their favorite coins, then the thought crossed my mind that maybe the goldfish were only given to friends of the artist, with a smaller mintage than the pagodas. ggoodluck2013 described a mythical story about how Yi Shizhong may have restruck some of his coin designs in a different metal, for himself. Maybe it's true, maybe it's not, and maybe it has a kernel of truth.

One thing I know for sure is that Chen Jian's 1980 silver God of Longevity seems very similar to the silver pagodas and goldfish in rarity, and it also seems to have been a VIP issue of some kind, although it is not hand engraved. Chen Jian did design his own tribute coin, and if he can do that, maybe he can strike his own coins too. The stories get a LOT more interesting if it's possible that we're dealing with "rogue" employees minting whatever they want to mint, without much importance given to the situation.

That could explain why some things never got minted ("I can mint one whenever I want to - oh, but it's time to retire now!"), and some things that did get minted have always been popular, but they still never were produced in significant numbers like they would if they were minted officially as a source of income for the mint and the government of China. That might explain some of the restrikes!

What if the pagodas and goldfish were "just for fun" at first, but later when the mint noticed what the artists were doing, they decided to restrike them in brass and plate them in gold and silver so they could be sold in greater numbers for profit? That's plausible. This is another interesting hypothesis for further research.

I also like ALL of Feng Yunming's sets as posted by Fwang.   In time the market will wake up to his contributions as the Grandfather of MCC medals........

Link to fwang2450's info about Feng Yunming, please? I always liked his portrait photograph. He just looks like what I imagine a nice person and a talented artist would look like.
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« Reply #3442 on: Yesterday at 09:21:03 am »

Fwang's Blog 2013 May is about Feng.....It makes sense to go back and reread all of Fwang's Blog posts......Wish he would translate more information for his blog as all are good reading.....

Also the 84 silver pagoda's reverse is cast? which makes it even more unique.   That was posted by Fwang on CCF but i could not find it, maybe someone else can post it?    (Do not know how to post a link on this borrowed computer)......
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« Reply #3443 on: Yesterday at 11:46:32 am »

This was a graded PGCS.  And it appears it was their new holder (??).  Wow.  Looks like I'm sticking with NGC for now. 




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My posts are for information and education purposes, although I MAY (more than likely) buy/sell/hold the MCC I write about, so I may not be unbiased in readers eyes. Contact a coin dealer or financial advisor before acting on what I have posted. I am passionate about Chinese medals. If that gets misconstrued as being a Pumper and Dumper. I'm guilty as charged. Thanks, barsenault, iluvmysilver, lovenoah and www.chinesemedals.com
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« Reply #3444 on: Yesterday at 04:49:27 pm »

Gold is normally quite inert, and does not exhibit such deteriorations. Impurities in the gold can definitely change color, and that's where red spots come from, but red spots are a form of toning that is easy to remove without damaging the coin. My guess is the PCGS slab has nothing to do with it. Instead, the 2010 gold panda just had invisible filth all over it that discolored it. The haze is especially unlikely to be a problem with the holder. It really looks like filthy residue. Of course, none of that compensates the owner for their loss of spectacular eye appeal reflected in the 70 grade, on a very nice early strike gold panda.

PCGS does their on conservation in-house, but it's not a service that they normally offer to the public. It might be worthwhile if the owner of the coin called PCGS and asked them if it's possible they could conserve the coin and restore the 70 grade. Who knows, maybe they will say they will give it a shot. It might not work, especially if it's actually chloride damage from PVC or salt, but if it does work, that would be ideal. I will be curious what PCGS says about it.
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« Reply #3445 on: Yesterday at 05:17:14 pm »

1991 copper panda 10th anniversary sold from ggoodluck2013: 141761567551. The 1991 10th anniversary coins have always been popular, and it's nice to see such a cheap price on this one, even though it's uncertified.

dragonzeng168 is pretty proud of these "first strike" labels from PCGS: 161810893157. I don't think they're any big deal, but that one sold, and they do indeed attract more buyers than coins without the special label. Normally the good advice says "buy the coin, not the slab" but I think this is a case of the opposite happening, and pretty often too. There is always some extra appeal of having something special, and when I say things like "buy what you like", I guess I shouldn't be too surprised that some people like to collect slabs!

2015 silver mammoth sold for the full Buy-It-Now asking price of $375: 151773606562. thincat00 sold the brass version today for the full Buy-It-Now asking price: 181786713820.
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« Reply #3446 on: Yesterday at 06:17:55 pm »

Fwang's Blog 2013 May is about Feng.....It makes sense to go back and reread all of Fwang's Blog posts......Wish he would translate more information for his blog as all are good reading.....

Also the 84 silver pagoda's reverse is cast? which makes it even more unique.   That was posted by Fwang on CCF but i could not find it, maybe someone else can post it?    (Do not know how to post a link on this borrowed computer)......

I found it!:

http://modern-chinese-numismatic-info.blogspot.com/2013/05/feng-yunming-and-early-semi-official.html

I just noticed that Feng Yunming seems to specialize in art theme coins. He did many coins depicting the artist or their art, for Lu Xun, Qi Baishi, and ancient artifacts. I can see the appeal in collecting Feng Yunming's coin designs in an art pricing investment strategy! Although nothing will ever top hand engraved coins, many all of the most valuable American coins that are famous for their art were designed by sculptors who did not have the skill to do hand engraving even if they wanted to. Not all of the famous designs are very valuable, though. It greatly depends on the mintage and surviving population.

On the other hand, my hypothesis is that all of the hand engraved USA coins ARE very valuable, but it needs to be researched. According to this, the US mint stopped hand engraving in 1836:

http://doubleddie.com/58201.html

The mint still called their artists "engravers", when they're technically sculptors, after 1836. I just did some quick looking around at prices guides for 1835 dated US coins, and it appears they were minted in large enough numbers to keep prices down, so rarity still dominates. However, in the high grades, it looks like a typical price suddenly drops from around $4000 for 1835 and older in a 65 grade, to around $2000 or $3000 for 1836 and newer! That's what I was looking for! Indeed, the hand engraved coins appear to be more valuable, on average!

http://www.pcgs.com/prices/priceguidedetail.aspx?c=662&title=coronet+head+cent

In the case of the USA's copper cents, these are the most common coins. I will have to look around at the silver and gold coins. Maybe the value differences are larger between the hand engraved ones, and the the machine engraved ones. Very interesting line of research we have stumbled upon! This information could help us decide that maybe some of the hand engraved Chinese coins are underpriced, or some of the machine engraved coins are overpriced. As investors, we want to buy the underpriced ones.
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If families are a problem for the system, then we must reject the system, not the families.
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The Coin Compendium and the china-mint.info forum, censure, disclosure.
Do not PM questions. Answers should be publicly available.
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About me: User:Badon - MediaWiki.org
Badon effect: type 1 to 8, type 9.
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« Reply #3447 on: Yesterday at 06:34:24 pm »

141745805706

This is interesting 2 mints for one medal. GGoodluck the first again in ebay?

Edit by badon: Linkify.



Trouble, I like this medal alot from Ggoodluck because it has 2 mint stamps and that must be rare.  Do you know of any other MCC w/ 2 mint stamps?   It is 1996 1/6 oz silver.        It is similar to the 1996 1/2 oz Beijing Expo w/ gold inlay.   NGC has 11 total graded.   The 1/2 oz was posted on CCF as first year of 1/2 oz Expo?   It has been awhile since the post but was considered a very good medal to own.  Ggoodluck has another 1/2 oz raw w/ some rubs for about $120  Ebay 141764532003.   I almost never see the 1/2 oz on ebay & I read it is very popular in China.       This 1/6th oz is cheap for $40, not many MCC in OMP are this price.   What is actual mintage?   Owning the 1/6 oz and 1/2 oz makes sense........

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« Reply #3448 on: Yesterday at 06:41:13 pm »

Ebay 151803114313   1978 Hong Kong Archaeological Finds   $999.   Posted this a day or two ago.  It looks like a Feng medal.   Not cheap so must be rare.   Anyone know?.......

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« Reply #3449 on: Yesterday at 07:40:05 pm »

As Badon has said many times, what a shame that such a beautiful piece has been treated like toilet paper. 12 oz Hong Kong Panda Silver Medal.
151800360995

Here is a 1994 bimetallic HK Medal.  Good price at 218.00
281786426125

1985 OMP 1985 HK 5 oz Medal.  Not sure why so many of these are in such rough shape.
311430235797

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« Last Edit: Yesterday at 08:12:49 pm by badon » Logged

My posts are for information and education purposes, although I MAY (more than likely) buy/sell/hold the MCC I write about, so I may not be unbiased in readers eyes. Contact a coin dealer or financial advisor before acting on what I have posted. I am passionate about Chinese medals. If that gets misconstrued as being a Pumper and Dumper. I'm guilty as charged. Thanks, barsenault, iluvmysilver, lovenoah and www.chinesemedals.com
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