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Author Topic: MCC LIST #183: 2014, collectors, pullback 9 reasons, food, coin-medal-whatever  (Read 74277 times)
perfulator, pandamonium and 11 Guests are viewing this topic.
LBC3716
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« Reply #3380 on: 2015 Sep 01, 11:50:14 am »

The Yuyuan Yanshan sold for $155.35 including the buyer's fee.

The four piece Old Summer Palace set sold for $507.88 including the buyer's fee.

Prices were generally weak. Others:

A God of Wealth Cai Bo Xing  copper, brass and silver set went for $119.50 including the buyer's fee. NGC PF69.

A God of Wealth Guanyu copper, brass and silver set sold for $131.45 including the buyer's fee. NGC PF69.

A dozen or so 1993 25Y Gold Peacocks in PCGS / NGC MS69 all sold for less than $400 each including the buyer's fee.


 
 
Re: MCC LIST #183: 2014, collectors, pullback 9 reasons, food, coin-medal-whatever


http://www.stacksbowers.com/BrowseAuctions/LotDetail/tabid/227/AuctionID/6106/Lot/54587/Default.aspx

This might be interesting

http://www.stacksbowers.com/BrowseAuctions/LotDetail/tabid/227/AuctionID/6106/Lot/54609/Default.aspx

Yuyuan Yanshan Tang Chinese Garden MS69 estimate price 75-125 crazy. it cannot be true

http://www.stacksbowers.com/BrowseAuctions/LotDetail/tabid/227/AuctionID/6106/Lot/54613/Default.aspx

CHINA. Four Piece Old Summer Palace Medals Set, ND 2014. NGC PROOF-69 ULTRA CAMEO.
4 pieces in set. 40 mm medals struck in silver and brass featuring the classic gardens of the old summer palace. One of each metal having a cameo finish and the other having a matte finish. Interestingly three out of the four pieces have medal rotation while the silver matte piece has coin rotation. A perfectly matched set with the matte pieces grading NGC PROOF-69 MATTE and the other two pieces graded
Estimate: $300.00 - $400.00
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barsenault
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« Reply #3381 on: 2015 Sep 01, 12:41:49 pm »

Man, I with Badon, that stacks and bowers is very hard to use and understand.m it doesn't show when the listing ends.

Thanks for sharing.
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My posts are for information and education purposes, although I MAY (more than likely) buy/sell/hold the MCC I write about, so I may not be unbiased in readers eyes. Contact a coin dealer or financial advisor before acting on what I have posted. I am passionate about Chinese medals. If that gets misconstrued as being a Pumper and Dumper. I'm guilty as charged. Thanks, barsenault, iluvmysilver, lovenoah and www.chinesemedals.com
LBC3716
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« Reply #3382 on: 2015 Sep 01, 12:52:03 pm »

The Stacks Bowers auction was a live auction with live internet bidding also. It had a specific start time for the first lot but the ones I wanted to bid on didn't come up for live bid until hours later. There's always the option to bid early.
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pandamonium
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« Reply #3383 on: 2015 Sep 01, 02:59:50 pm »

1980 PF 69 Brass Palace Lantern set w/ hand carved box  $1,618      Ebay 161812520766      Seller Dragonzeng.......Rare......

1997 Hong Kong Reunification silver set OMP box/coa   -bid-       Ebay 311434819618.......Rare?   Unknown set?.....

Edit by badon: Linkify.
« Last Edit: 2015 Sep 01, 03:03:40 pm by badon » Logged
badon
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« Reply #3384 on: 2015 Sep 01, 03:15:10 pm »

Man, I with Badon, that stacks and bowers is very hard to use and understand.m it doesn't show when the listing ends.

Thanks for sharing.

The Stacks Bowers auction was a live auction with live internet bidding also. It had a specific start time for the first lot but the ones I wanted to bid on didn't come up for live bid until hours later. There's always the option to bid early.

I had all manner of difficulties. After waiting several hours, I missed ALL of the lots I wanted to bid on by a few minutes. Their auction software is not very robust, and every time my internet connection dropped, I had to manually login again, and manually re-navigate to the items I want step-by-painful-step because it's all JavaScript (and Flash), and I can't just save a simple link.

In a world where nearly everyone uses unreliable 3G/4G cellular internet while traveling, it's pretty ridiculous that the auction software doesn't do everything it can to immediately and automatically restore the internet connection as soon as it comes back up. I don't have this problem with ebay. Even if I did, ebay does automatic bidding for you, up to your maximum bid. With Stack's Bowers, you have to wait for your auction lot to get its turn, and then you have only a few seconds to place a bid before the auction completes without you.
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If families are a problem for the system, then we must reject the system, not the families.
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« Reply #3385 on: 2015 Sep 01, 03:23:02 pm »

1980 PF 69 Brass Palace Lantern set w/ hand carved box  $1,618      Ebay 161812520766      Seller Dragonzeng.......Rare......

Gorgeous! Hand carved coin dies, and hand carved wooden box! I wish he had a photo of the inside of the COA. If I remember correctly, the dragon is one of the most common of the palace lantern set, but I did not know that they were issued in a separate 2 coin set with the crane. That would explain why the coins are more common - but still quite rare, especially in high grades with both the box and COA.

According to this:

https://www.coincompendium.com/w/index.php/CCT405#Hand_engraved_steel_dies_or_hubs

The crane is the only one that has both sides engraved by Yi Shizhong. I don't know if that makes it more valuable or not, but maybe it would be if Yi Shizhong's art becomes sought after by art collectors.
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If families are a problem for the system, then we must reject the system, not the families.
Founder of the Coin Compendium (forum, blogs, calendar, images, donate, contribute).
LBC makes you rich, with a free ebay gift certificate awarded every month!
The Coin Compendium and the china-mint.info forum, censure, disclosure.
Do not PM questions. Answers should be publicly available.
Backup is not enough. Protect your data with MultiPar.
Writer of LBC Chinese coin investment articles (list).
About me: User:Badon - MediaWiki.org
Badon effect: type 1 to 8, type 9.
I type faster on a TypeMatrix.
Use my work. Give credit.
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LBC3716
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« Reply #3386 on: 2015 Sep 01, 03:46:01 pm »

Stacks Bowers definitely is not online bidder friendly which is a significant advantage for the floor bidder. The online bidder who wants to bid on a lot always faces the real possibility that he will not be able to bid real-time on a lot. Knowing this, it is advisable to place a bid before the online bidding begins. Stacks Bowers is a reputable auction corporation. It is puzzling why they to not provide a better online bidding experience for customers. One has to believe they are losing significant business if potential sellers due their due diligence when choosing an auction house.
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« Reply #3387 on: 2015 Sep 01, 05:24:50 pm »

I have a hunch Stack's Bowers is starting to take my complaints seriously. Normally Stack's Bowers responds within hours of receiving my email at the start of business each day, but this time they haven't responded yet, so I think they're probably having a "come to Jesus meeting" to try to figure out why their Hong Kong auction was a massive failure.

As an example of one of the worst problems, their system allegedly accepted 2 sequential bids from the same bidder on one of the items, even though there was only 1 bidder. I can't confirm this because not enough information is visible in their auction process (ebay shows anonymized bidder info so you can at least tell when the same person is bidding), but I think I may have seen this happen because it was on one of the items I was watching. If it's true, then I think it was a bug in their site.

I complained about all the other problems too, and I'm really hoping we have their attention. Stack's Bowers is one of the few auction houses that deals with Chinese coins that DOES NOT allow shill bidding. We desperately need Stack's Bowers in this market, so they can effectively compete with shady auction houses that think we're stupid enough to believe them when they keep proclaiming record prices, while they allow shill bidding.

If you want to help, send an email to info@stacksbowers.com to complain about the problems you experienced - in anything, including just browsing their site. If you haven't used their site enough to become frustrated by its problems, please send them an email to show your support for Stack's Bowers by explaining that you have heard of the problems with their website, and you hope they fix them so we will always have Stack's Bowers as an alternative to fraudulent auctions from Chinese auction houses.

Another important thing to complain about is that they shouldn't just describe everything as "10 yuan". The fiat values are meaningless and hundreds or thousands of completely different coins might have the same fiat value. If they're struggling for info, tell them about the Coin Compendium and its CC numbers for types and specimens. Here's a good example of what I'm talking about:

http://www.stacksbowers.com/BrowseAuctions/LotDetail/tabid/227/AuctionID/6106/Lot/54615/Default.aspx

That is described as "CHINA. Mixed Date 10 Yuans, 1986-2006.". Not "lunar", not "flower lunar", not "silver flower lunar"...you get the idea. How is Google supposed to send internet searchers to bid on this auction if real humans can't figure out what is for sale here? ebay makes sure Google can show ebay items in search results, which is one reason why ebay is better than Stack's Bowers. Stack's Bowers auction listings are all JavaScript, which means they are completely invisible to search engines. How can people like us expect to get a fair price for our coins through Stack's Bowers if buyers can't even find them?

Notice that EVERY item Stack's Bowers has shows "Stack's Bowers > Browse Auctions > LotDetail" as the title in your web browsers title bar. That's the most prominent piece of information that Google uses to figure out what each website is, and whether it might be useful to someone searching for information about it. In this case, the information is utterly useless. That's such a monumental failure in basic web design that there is no excuse for it. Whoever is in charge of Stack's Bowers website development is obviously completely incompetent. Seriously, it would be better to just publish auction items in paper form. At least the then they could submit it to Google Books, which would OCR it and make it searchable.
« Last Edit: 2015 Sep 01, 05:40:26 pm by badon » Logged

If families are a problem for the system, then we must reject the system, not the families.
Founder of the Coin Compendium (forum, blogs, calendar, images, donate, contribute).
LBC makes you rich, with a free ebay gift certificate awarded every month!
The Coin Compendium and the china-mint.info forum, censure, disclosure.
Do not PM questions. Answers should be publicly available.
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« Reply #3388 on: 2015 Sep 01, 11:46:12 pm »

1980 PF 69 Brass Palace Lantern set w/ hand carved box  $1,618      Ebay 161812520766      Seller Dragonzeng.......Rare......

Gorgeous! Hand carved coin dies, and hand carved wooden box! I wish he had a photo of the inside of the COA. If I remember correctly, the dragon is one of the most common of the palace lantern set, but I did not know that they were issued in a separate 2 coin set with the crane. That would explain why the coins are more common - but still quite rare, especially in high grades with both the box and COA.

According to this:

https://www.coincompendium.com/w/index.php/CCT405#Hand_engraved_steel_dies_or_hubs

The crane is the only one that has both sides engraved by Yi Shizhong. I don't know if that makes it more valuable or not, but maybe it would be if Yi Shizhong's art becomes sought after by art collectors.

The badon effect strikes again. That item is gone already. I was hoping to admire it online a bit longer before someone grabs it, but it appears to have found a new home. It's a truly beautiful set, and I hope the CC team preserves the photos of it.
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If families are a problem for the system, then we must reject the system, not the families.
Founder of the Coin Compendium (forum, blogs, calendar, images, donate, contribute).
LBC makes you rich, with a free ebay gift certificate awarded every month!
The Coin Compendium and the china-mint.info forum, censure, disclosure.
Do not PM questions. Answers should be publicly available.
Backup is not enough. Protect your data with MultiPar.
Writer of LBC Chinese coin investment articles (list).
About me: User:Badon - MediaWiki.org
Badon effect: type 1 to 8, type 9.
I type faster on a TypeMatrix.
Use my work. Give credit.
Coin, medal, whatever!
Coin storage advice.
FreeArc is amazing.
User contributions for Badon - Coin Compendium
RhodiumPanda
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« Reply #3389 on: 2015 Sep 02, 12:35:33 am »

Badon, re: Large Gold Pandas/MCC:
I agree that large gold pandas are a poor numismatic investment, due to the high bullion value that prevents much of a numismatic value on top.   

However: 
1) I would argue that this is just another indicator of how little money is in MCC in general.  If even 1% of 1% of the $60Trillion in massively overvalued stocks chased MCC (and collected pandas for example): then the yearly large gold kilos of 68 mintage could easily get bid through the roof.   They would have to do this to absorb the massive quantities of toilet paper currencies to invest - pick up the more expensive larger gold and get a double value (little up front numismatic value and enough gold to absorb the potentially massive wealth preservation $'s.  You would need to be worth at least $50 Million or so to consider getting a full gold panda collection (all the kilos, etc.) ,  but the guys who have their money in stock markets where even the indexes have gone up 30-80 X since the 1974 low (silver is only up 4 X, and gold about 6 X since then (although closer to 11X for silver and 20X for gold since the Nov 1971 55+ year metals low).
2) Large gold pandas may be among the worse numismatic investments at this point (I would argue that medium/high mintage special releases that are issued at 5-10X silver value up front and later drop are worse).  Also - large gold pandas are great investments compared to many non-numistic investments (bonds in bankrupt countries like Japan, US, European countries, etc. that will never get paid off unless inflated away first, incredibly overpriced stocks (such as most penny stocks and Amazon (just one example) at a PE ratio that varies between 375 and negative infinity, in spite of dominating world internet commerce in a field with low cost barriers to entry).

Re: 5Kilo Gold Panda 10th Anniversary.   This coin is actually in the Zhao Li Cheng "Illustrated Catalogue of Modern Chinese Gold and Silver Commemorative Coins" and has been for several years, whereas the 1982 Pt panda is not.   Of course Peter Anthony mentions both coins, but displays neither (at least in the first edition).

I have a 1987 12oz Gold and 5oz Gold Panda that I bought for gold + $25/oz 10 years ago or so.  They will always match Kruggerands and Maples and Eagles for price and look much better.   They (in particular) will not get a numistatic value - being higher mintage large gold pandas (3000-4000 vs 68 for later gold Kilos).

Badon:
It is still smart to have some money in Gold and Silver - as a core holding (5000 year money history) along with the (higher potential) MCC's.   Rhodium, Palladium and Platnum have significant appreciation potential (higher than, but in between the older more fully valued medium mintage pandas and the recent super low mintage medals (lower potential than these, in general).   This is especially true now after the 4-7.5 years metals bear markets.  I'm curious why you don't want any PM's now (esp. now that all PM's have dropped 40%-92% from their all-time highs as opposed to US stocks that were recently nearly 40% higher than their previous all-time highs.   I can understand if you got out of all of them in 2008 (PM's) or 2011 (Ag & Au), but not so much now when they've all dropped significantly.

I agree that MCC & Medals have massive potential, but have thin markets and the potential for more dead time in between rises.

(And yes - I would like to see a Rhodium Panda medal or coin - but it wouldn't be real impressive due to the higher hardness than other PM's and the highest melting point of the PM's


Pandamonium:
I agree that it is not smart to give up on bullion (or junk, if bought at low premiums) silver, esp. now that silver is down nearly 70% from the 1980 and 2011highs.   I would far rather buy medium-mintage silver proof sets (sub million mintages) at spot silver (possible when closer to $20/oz.) with no premium (and little or no downside when silver drops below $15/oz or so) than 90% Junk silver (with billions of ugly, worn coins minted) or esp. 40+ million mintage silver eagles!  If those proof sets can be bought at spot silver price they are one example of a US coin set that has a mintage of 1/10 that of current BU silver pandas yet, with their 0% numismatic premium vs $20 or 2.3X premium for current BU silver pandas.  They do have some potential for premium (far more than Eagles - probably similar to 90% junk), but nothing like 2013-2015 Chinese medals!
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