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Author Topic: Modern Chinese coin investments LIST #145 - davidt3251, details grades  (Read 1056 times)
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« on: 2012 Jun 12, 06:04:41 pm »



The article is broken up into separate posts - The coin investments list is at the end of the article

In the CCF posting "NEWS:Gold investment demand in China up", at first glance it appears to be bullish for us coin investors. But, davidt3251 conscientiously pointed out that cash flows into precious metals (and coins) are a double-edged sword that both hurt and help our investments. Money flowing into unproductive assets like gold and coins essentially drains an economy of its circulating cash. With no cash, people stop earning money for their labor. With no money, the labor stops. When the labor stops, people get hungry. When people get hungry... I think you can figure out the rest yourself.

I frequently say in my articles that in hard times, everybody hurts. The goal is not to avoid financial pain, and it isn't even to minimize the pain either. It's all about positioning. There are 200 laps in the Indy 500, and being in the lead for 199 laps is not only insufficient, it is totally counterproductive if you run out of fuel before the end of the 200th lap. The lead car always burns more fuel, so being in any position except the lead will help you to reduce your fuel consumption so you can burn the last few drops in a sprint for the finish line at the end of the race.

This principle has been learned by birds, which is why they fly long distances in the formations that they do. And, the principle has also been learned in the game of Go. Trying to dominate, and trying to avoid pain, are both destructive.

I think China's government is aware of this, and the Chinese people are tough and experienced in dealing with hardships. China's plan for dealing with the looming worldwide American-led financial hardship has a few creative features:

1. Sell modern Chinese coins in local banks to remove circulating currency, to keep the printing presses running to ensure the cash flows to keep people working, while also limiting inflation. Creating cash to keep the economy working, while also limiting inflation is the most difficult financial balancing act that can be done, and China is doing it!

2. If there is a global domino-efffect currency collapse, China will get hit the same as every other country. But, China has successfully persuaded its population to buy up the world's hard assets like gold, silver, and coins (among many others). That provides stability and less harsh consequences compared to the rest of the world, all without much direct expense or loss of wealth for the government and people of China. Chinese government and society will be hurting, but only because it's still alive to feel the pain. Western, African, and Middle Eastern societies are struggling to quell revolts, maintain order, and keep productivity from grinding to a halt.

3. When things improve, the improvement will be disproportionately concentrated for those who wisely distanced themselves from American-led self-destruction. It will be a dark age in the West, and an enlightened age in the East. The phrase "fine China" will have meaning once again, as all the manufacturing capacity and quality goods are Chinese.

Where do you think is the best place to invest your money? In the end, everything you need to know is in this graphic:



Source: WikiMedia Commons.


CC grades and "details" grades


Coins with an NGC "details" grade are damaged in their own unique way, that makes them technically ungradable. So, they get recorded in the Coin Compendium with a 0 grade. Details grades aren't really grades since 2 coins with the same details grade can be completely different. That's why NGC doesn't assign numerical grades - it discourages direct comparison. Since the CC is a mindless machine, it can't tell which coins are "pretty" and which coins are "ugly", so even though the details grades might be useful for a human, I haven't been able to make them usable in the CC. Maybe in the future it might be possible to convert details grades into the lowest end of the numerical grading scale, but I don't think so because even undamaged coin grades have a fundamental problem.

The 70 point numerical grading scale is flawed because it has holy reverence for Sheldon's idea of what "uncirculated" meant. No matter how pristine and gorgeous a coin is, if it has discernible wear, it can never have a grade higher than 59. But, if a scraped up tire weight has no discernable wear, it can never have a grade lower than 60.

Therefore, I feel that grades between 55 and 65 cannot be trusted to indicate the true state of preservation of a coin. The 70 point scale would have been fine if it didn't arbitrarily dictate that wear versus no-wear should have a specific place on the grading scale, regardless of actual state of preservation.

I'm actually hoping that a third competitor to NGC and PCGS decides to dump the 70 point scale in favor of a more sophisticated scale that evaluates both sides and the edge of coin independently instead of trying to stuff the entire coin into a single grade. With a more capable scale, we could assign meaningful grades to coins that are currently impossible to grade using the primitive 70 point scale. For example, there are lots of "details" graded coins that look much better than other coins in worse condition that are considered worthy of a numerical grade. A proper grading scale should recognize superior preservation, as equally as possible in all cases.

In fact, enabling multiple opinions on the grade of a coin was one of my goals with the Coin Compendium. Since it has an image annotation feature, anybody can grade a coin how they see fit. Maybe this mythical 3rd competitor to PCGS and NGC will be ordinary people like you and me, who are now able to grade the coin while it's still in a PCGS or NGC holder, just by referring to the CC specimen number. That could get interesting.

Imagine a future for coin collecting where you can see a coin you want to buy, then look it up in the CC to review every forum discussion, every sale, and people's detailed notes about every speck of the surface of the coin. No more squinting through a loupe! If the coin has hairline scratches or white spots of death, you wouldn't even need to bother trying to find them. Just look at the CC's image annotations like they're a kind of coin map that charts all the landmarks on the coin.

Since coin collecting is a generational endeavor, where all future collectors necessarily must inherit coins owned by previous collectors, it isn't so far-fetched as it might at first seem. The CC already has over 10,000 specimens and and it's only been operational for about 3 months. Imagine how many coins it will have in 60 years...Assuming the CC growth rate remains exactly where it is now, it would have 2.4 million coins in that amount of time.

Of course, it's quite likely that growth will accelerate as time goes by. Maybe within 10 years, when a collector tries to enter a coin, he'll find that most of the time the coin has already been entered. From there, he'll have to entertain himself by adding more information like photos and historical data connected to the coin. The Coin Compendium is still in its infancy. I cannot foresee all the diverse ways it will be used in the future, but its profound utility is obvious.


My choices


* Although I like gold modern Chinese coins, and I have been buying them, I buy them for wealth preservation knowing that their percentage gains are probably not going to be as good as for silver coins. Silver coin prices have been depressed more than gold recently, and likewise, they will probably rise more than gold when the time comes.
* Pay attention to the new things people are adding to the CCT405: Modern Chinese coins 1979 to today area of the Coin Compendium. You might want to regularly check for new variety types being entered in the CC's type category
* Coins in a 70 grade, any of them from the golden age 1979 to 2003.
* 1988 5 oz silver Hong Kong expo panda dragon
* Popular large size coins, especially lunars, expos, and gods, all in silver. Also possibly short series coins in gold, preferably no bigger than 5 oz unless exceptional (dragon & phoenix, peacock, etc) and you can tolerate increased risk/reward. Avoid common large size gold pandas.
* World and Chinese historical figures 1984 to 1994.
* Copper Taoist folk gods?
* 1991 15 g silver lunar goat and 1993 2/3 oz silver scallop plum flower rooster.
* Lunars. My personal favorites are the silver and gold plum flower lunars, the 15 g silver lunars, and the 1 oz piedfort lunars. The newly recognized non-fiat brass and silver lunar sets are cheap, and may have greater investment potential, with more risk.
* Dragon and phoenix (marriage theme symbolism).
* Peacocks (marriage theme symbolism).
* Pandas, especially silver, the rarer the better.
* Popular low-mintage key dates: 1990, 1995, 1997, 1998.
* 2012 anniversary dates: 1982 (panda), 1988 & 2000 (lunar).
* Other anniversary dates: 1991, 1992, 2007, 2009.
* "Golden age" coins 1979 to 2009 (30 amazing years!), especially 2003 and older.
* Dates, COA's, etc. with the Chinese lucky number 8.
* Other interesting numbers: 126, 129, 28, 6, 16


Newly discovered varieties


This is where treasure hunters lurk...

This list is terribly incomplete. I can't keep up with all the new discoveries! Please see Category:Types at the Coin Compendium. Newly entered types show up there, and checking that once a day will help you find new varieties that someone has entered.

* CCT311: 1986 22 g silver Chinese historical figures Cai Lun (7 varieties, rarest mintage 703)
* CCT303: 1987 22 g silver Chinese historical figures Li Chun (4 varieties, rarest mintage 455)
* CCT781: 1990 2 g silver dragon and phoenix proof (4 varieties, unknown mintage)
* CCT676: 1993 22 g silver invention & discovery yin yang (3 varieties, rarest mintage 25)
* CCT356: 1994 1 oz silver unicorn proof (3 varieties, rarest mintage 652)
* CCT1485: 1994 1/2 oz gold invention & discovery comets (2 varieties, rarest mintage 126)
* CCT203: 1995 1 oz silver panda proof (4 varieties, rarest mintage 1066)
* CCT1395: 1997 22 g silver traditional Chinese culture Genghis Khan (2 varieties, unknown mintage)
* CCT214: 1997 22 g silver Chinese traditional culture Zhuangzi (2 or 3 varieties, unknown mintage, authenticity questioned)
* CCT214: 1997 22 g silver Chinese traditional culture Zhuangzi (unknown varieties, unknown mintage)
* CCT848: 1998 1 oz gold panda large date (2 varieties, unknown mintage)
* CCT666: 1999 1 oz silver panda Beijing expo (5 varieties, rarest mintage 395)
* CCT1456: 2012 1 oz silver panda Singapore expo (3 varieties, unknown mintage)
* CCT1457: 2012 5 oz silver panda Singapore expo (3 varieties, rarest mintage 225)


Tips


* Buy coins you like.
* Underpriced coins are hot buys for contrarian investors right now.
* Incredible rarities are AVAILABLE, and that's always the best time to buy them.
* Pay what you have to pay for good coins.
* Focus your purchases on rarity together with popularity.
* Grade rarity is becoming important, especially 70 grades.

Remember, there are several kinds of rarity, in the normal order of importance:

* Mintage rarity
* Relative rarity within a series ("key" coins)
* Grade rarity
* Variety rarity + popularity (you also have to have at least the potential for popularity)

Right now grade rarity is more important from an investment perspective. Coins with high grade rarity are temporarily underpriced. Buy them up so you can profit when prices rise to where they should be, and things go back to normal.


8 criteria for investing in varieties


The importance of a variety for investing depends on a few things:

1. Maturity of the market. More is better.
2. The number of dies, and thus varieties, used in production. Less is better.
3. Varieties of the same die (die states) are less important unless the difference is dramatic, funny, beautiful (early die states), or interesting.
4. The type of the varieties. Deliberate design changes are better than random die production oddities.
5. A substantial difference in the rarity of the varieties versus the rarity of the "common" type, especially if the varieties are minor.
6. A substantial difference in the appearance of the varieties.
7. Being part of a small set means collector's rapidly complete the basic set, and are ready to advance toward a new challenge of collecting varieties.
8. Collector challenge is met with collector cash. Cash = price increases = easy profits = importance.

A variety does not need to meet all of those criteria to the maximum extent possible in order to become a good investment. For example, the 1998 1/2 oz large date panda does not meet criteria #7 because it is part of a large set of other pandas. In the end, criteria #8 is the only one that matters. If collectors are competitively chasing a coin, that's all that is required to make them good investments.


Types of varieties


Here's a list of variety types that are known or believed to exist:

* Restrikes, patterns, or other special strikes.
* Design variations.
* Date variations.
* Edge variations.
* Rim variations.
* Major frosting variations.
* Errors (anything is possible).
* Minor frosting variations.
* Early die states.
* Late die states.
* Damaged dies.
* Repaired dies.
* Obverse and reverse die-pair variations.

« Last Edit: 2012 Jun 14, 03:17:18 am by badon » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: 2012 Jun 12, 06:04:57 pm »

This ended up going for what I consider very cheap:

CCS11226: 1998 2/3 oz silver lunar flower tiger NGC 70 Ultra Cameo - Sale ended sold for 1,080 USD

Recent sales for PF 69s have been in the $265-$450 range, so we are looking at a 2-4x multiplier. I guess that's in the normal range, but for low mintage coin in one of the most popular animals in one of the most (if not the most) popular series, it seems cheap to me.

Oh well, if I could buy all the coins I wanted, I'd be a much richer man :).

Congrats to the buyer!
« Last Edit: 2012 Jun 12, 06:22:29 pm by tamo42 » Logged

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« Reply #2 on: 2012 Jun 12, 06:05:03 pm »

Table of contents


Not everything is in the table of contents, but all the important stuff is here.

* Recently sold coins
* Newly listed coins
* 70 grade coins
* Panda coins
* Lunar coins
* Other coins
* * Asian Games
* * Auspicious matters
* * Buddhist gods and goddesses
* * China scenery
* * Chinese historical figures
* * Commemoratives
* * Culture of the Yellow River
* * Dragon and phoenix
* * Endangered wildlife
* * Famous literature
* * Famous paintings
* * Goldfish
* * Invention & discovery
* * Olympic
* * Silk road
* * Taoist folk gods
* * Traditional Chinese culture
* * Unearthed artifacts
* * Unicorn
* * Vault protector
* * World Cup
* * World historical figures
* Opera web browser
* Chinese coins are better
* Register, read replies, get NOTIFICATIONS, access drafts
* Recommended reading
* Problem sellers
* Helpful searches
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« Reply #3 on: 2012 Jun 12, 06:05:08 pm »

Opera web browser



I have found that the fastest web browser for loading these pages of coins is the Opera web browser. With other browsers, my fastest quad core computer slows down a lot on just one page. With Opera, I can load the whole thing up on my slowest computer, no problem. Get it now:

http://www.opera.com/browser/download/

There's also a handy "portable" version that does not require installation:

http://www.opera-usb.com/operausben.htm

Click on "Mainpage" to find versions in other languages besides English.
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« Reply #4 on: 2012 Jun 12, 06:05:13 pm »

Chinese coins are better





* Fidelity Overseas Fund (FOSFX)
* NASDAQ Average
* Brazilian Stock Index (BVSP)
* Crude Oil
* Gold
* Silver
* Chinese coins

This information comes from http://www.pandacollector.com/

The Fishball Panda Index

Created by Fishball at the Silver Stackers forum, the Fishball Panda Index (FPI) is to be an index of entry level Pandas (bullion) which is to be updated on a monthly basis using data from Peter Anthony's pricepedia.

MonthSilver FPIGold 1/20 oz FPIGold 1/10 oz FPIGold 1/4 oz FPI
Aug 20111000100010001000
Sep 20111019.221012.691027.901107.29
Oct 20111025.631122.241142.991183.32
Nov 20111022.111141.371159.101174.24
Dec 20111041.651098.421221.541156.66
Jan 2012943.611,005.391,219.121,208.51
Feb 2012950.66978.791,073.391,154.00
Mar 20121,007.691,021.911,063.071,183.38
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« Reply #5 on: 2012 Jun 12, 06:05:19 pm »

Register, read replies, get NOTIFICATIONS, access drafts



Always come back to check the replies on these articles. That's where most of the good stuff is! Register on the forums and click the "NOTIFY" button on this article to receive email notifications of new replies that may make some easy money for the first person to read it. Many of the best coins only last for a few minutes or seconds before somebody grabs them. If you get notified of replies, you'll be able to see anything new that I list right when I list it. You'll also stay informed of the hot topics, and see what other people are talking about buying.

Also, once you're registered on the forums, you can access the drafts forum where I post stuff I'm working on. Having access to my drafts lets you see the good stuff before anybody else - sometimes only minutes before, and sometimes more than a week before! You'll have valuable advanced information before the rest of the market gets it! Of course, you MUST click on the "NOTIFY" button for the drafts forum if you want to receive an instant notification that a draft has been posted.

Hint: Once you see the first draft, click the "NOTIFY" button for the draft. When my draft is almost ready for publishing, I break up the post into replies that follow the first post of the draft. You'll get a notification that a reply has been posted, and that will tell you the draft is almost done. A near-finished draft with the replies will contain more, better info than the first draft notification, so that's the good info you want to see.

Finally, you'll want to stay up-to-date on my postings, so click the "NOTIFY" button on my blog forum. You may want to take a look there from time to time, especially to read my older postings that are packed with valuable money-making information. If you're wondering if I'm worth listening to, you can see a list of my articles sorted by date. Check out the older ones to see my track record at predicting the markets. It's impressive, if I do say so myself. No one on the planet as a track record like mine. You can trust my predictions, they're always right!



Recommended reading


Get the 10 Mistakes Modern Chinese Coin Investors Make report, exclusively from badon and tamo42. PM tamo42 for details.

Here's some recent articles of mine that can provide some guidance for investing in the current and coming market conditions:

* The MCC Food Chain (By Batman)
* LBC makes me rich
* Wealth preservation: USA vs. China (By Zerosum)
* Coins are the hot new investment
* How high will the Chinese coin market go?
* 5 criteria to determine if a coin is a good investment
* 13 coin facts to learn for beginning investors of modern Chinese coins
* For those new to the modern Chinese coin market (By Batman)
* My First Chinese Panda Coin Purchase (By Tamo42)
* Modern Chinese coin investment strategy
* Black Swans, Fake Chinese coins, badon, & ebay! (By r3globe)
* Don't be the "whale" that pays too much for an investment coin
* Modern Chinese coin commentary and market predictions - 2010-Dec-15
* What makes people buy up all the Chinese panda coins?
* Investing in rare modern Chinese coins, some questions answered
* Cash is king for 2011 - Get ready for the coming bargain hunt
* Foresight: Gold, silver, coins, etc will weaken after January or February 2011
* Rumor: Modern Chinese coin charts coming out soon
* Why does this business site talk so much about investments?
* The chess game of rich vs. poor
* Why You Should Collect (or Invest) in Gold Panda Fractional BUs (By Batman)

Here's some handy websites for basic coin facts like mintages:

* The Coin Compendium is here!
* Modern China Coins Data sorted by series
* china-mint.info Data sorted by year
* china-mint.info silver actual mintages
* china-mint.info gold actual mintages
* Chinese Coin Forum
* Complete List Of Chinese Lunar Year Coins



Mr. Anthony (left) and Mr. Ge (right) say: "Buy the book before the coin!" These two authors are technically competing with each other, but even competing authors eagerly read each other's books for the valuable information they contain. If they have both books, maybe you should too...

Gold and Silver Panda Coin Buyer's Guide Book

This is THE panda book, written by the world's foremost expert on Chinese panda coins.

If you have the book, you need the updates. Peter Anthony publishes his Pricepedia giving you all the latest prices in both the US in China for pandas, lunars, and other popular modern Chinese coins - it's all essential market information. He also offers a 30 day money-back guarantee. If you don't like it, you'll get a refund and get to keep the first month free. As far as I know, no one has ever asked for a refund, because not only does the PricePedia contain pricing information, it also contains far more valuable market commentary that you can't get anywhere else. Make sure to tell him that you found his Pricepedia here at LBC! Get the Pricepedia here!

Another must-have book:

China Modern precious metals Illustrated Catalogue

While the panda book is only about pandas, this book is laid out as a broader reference for most modern Chinese coins, including pandas. The information it contains is slightly different, even for the same coins. Comparing the information in the two books may provide you with early insights into the actual rarity of the coins from a Western and Eastern perspective. Having them both in-hand will help you follow forum discussions about the coins too.
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« Reply #6 on: 2012 Jun 12, 06:05:23 pm »

Problem sellers


I have added a section that mentions problem sellers so people using this list will know if a seller they're interested in buying from is one that is likely to leave them unhappy. I feel compelled to do this, since removing them from my list entirely is not what people want, while at the same time, I feel responsible for recommending coins from sellers that will mistreat their customers.

These sellers are ones that have a longstanding pattern of problems. They frequently have nice coins, so their coins will still be included in this list, but this warning is here to tell you that you may regret buying from them. This is my little disclaimer, so I can distance myself from them if you have problems buying one of their coins that have been included in my list.

This list is the best resource available for people who are completely new to buying modern Chinese coins, so I feel it is important to make buyers aware of where the danger zones might be, while still making the coins available to more experience buyers who are used to handling problems from sellers that don't make customer satisfaction a high priority.

* beautyhere_2008
* phoenixam2008

Seller does not disclose flaws, and does not accept returns. Coins frequently have white spots of death that aren't clearly visible in photos.

UPDATE 2011 November 17 Thursday: dobedo has reported that the seller is using two different eBay ID's now, which are listed above.

* PandaAmerica

Seller has had a monopoly in the United States since 1982. Almost all the Chinese coins in America have to pass through them first. I hear frequent complaints of all types about this seller, mostly about their "culture" of inadequate customer service. The company's President is aware of their problems, and tells unhappy customers they should be grateful to be allowed to buy from their monopoly. The company is reluctant to accept returns, and they do not accept PayPal payments and buyer protections.

UPDATE 2011 November 02 Wednesday: PandaAmerica's President Peter Yeung and some members of his staff have been participating regularly at the Chinese Coin Forum. Some of the previous employees are no longer working there, and it has been a long time since I have heard any complaints about PandaAmerica. There has even been some recent praise for PandaAmerica posted at the CCF.

UPDATE 2011 November 11 Friday: PandaAmerica is now accepting PayPal on eBay. No complaints have been reported recently.

UPDATE 2012 April 06 Friday: There have been few or no complaints for several months, and this is very surprising. A company doing large volume sales would normally be expected to have at least SOME complaints over a long period of time. But, President Peter Yeung listened, promised improvements, and it appears PandaAmerica has reinvented itself with an unshakable customer-centered business model. Most notable is that PandaAmerica is by far the most active dealer participating in (and starting) important discussions at the CCF. Big companies have a lot of inertia, and from a business perspective, LBC applauds Peter Yeung and his staff at PandaAmerica for succeeding with the challenging task of changing their company's culture. PandaAmerica is a key figure in the modern Chinese coin market, and their successes are good for everybody. Congrats PandaAmerica! --badon

* rarecoincollector

Seller has been known to bait-and-switch listings, showing one photo in the auction and sending a different one. Apparently came back to eBay after alienating many of its clients on its own website. Seller also has a conflicting return policy.

UPDATE 2011 November 02 Wednesday: Rare Coin Collector has made an appearance at the Chinese Coin Forum. This is usually a very positive sign.


Edit by badon: PandaAmerica update
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« Reply #7 on: 2012 Jun 12, 06:05:27 pm »

Helpful searches


These are helpful searches for coins, not necessarily a list of recommendations, like the other items in this article. If you didn't see anything you like above, you may find coins on your own here that I have ignored or overlooked. I've included an ebay search widget to show you a sample of search results, when possible (they don't always work, so I leave them out).

I'm not going to be able to keep track of when stuff in these searches sell, so you'll have to let me know if you invest in something from these automated searches, so I can include it in the list of other coins that have sold. It would also be appreciated if you posted your coins in the LBC makes me rich thread. Thank you very much!

Search for Chinese coins in 69 grade

Search for Chinese coins in 70 grade

Search for all Chinese coins

Search for proof pandas

Search for panda coins of all types

Search for fractional gold pandas


The items above are not necessarily a list of recommendations. In an effort to help out our small business members, any ebay seller listing that links to any page at www.livebusinesschat.com will show up in the list above (only a few at a time, sorted by time remaining). The name "Live Business Chat" must be somewhere in the auction, preferably as part of the displayed link. To make it easy, just put the following line anywhere in your ebay listing:

<a href="http://www.livebusinesschat.com/">Live Business Chat</a>

You can use that same line to link to us from any other website, also.
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« Reply #8 on: 2012 Jun 12, 06:05:30 pm »

New Coins

1997 1/10 oz gold lunar ox 69

Sale Terms: 99 USD Auction.
Coin Compendium Sighting: CCS11712
Coin Compendium Specimen: CC10040
Coin Compendium Type: CCT2059
Mintage: 48000

1987 1 oz gold panda Tokyo expo 69 Ultra Cameo

Sale Terms: 4,950 USD Purchase.
Coin Compendium Sighting: CCS11716
Coin Compendium Specimen: CC10042
Coin Compendium Type: CCT1756
Mintage: 5000

1998 1 oz silver panda Beijing expo 69

Sale Terms: 499.88 USD Purchase, Best offer.
Coin Compendium Sighting: CCS11717
Coin Compendium Specimen: CC10043
Coin Compendium Type: CCT1195
Mintage: 30000

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« Reply #9 on: 2012 Jun 12, 06:11:27 pm »

1997 1 oz silver Mazu 69

Sale Terms: 0.99 USD Auction.
Coin Compendium Sighting: CCS11719
Coin Compendium Specimen: CC10044
Coin Compendium Type: CCT1297
Mintage: 50000

1985 27 g silver panda proof 69 Ultra Cameo

Sale Terms: 1,525 USD Auction, Purchase.
Coin Compendium Sighting: CCS11721
Coin Compendium Specimen: CC10046
Coin Compendium Type: CCT53
Mintage:

1984 27 g silver panda proof 69 Ultra Cameo

Sale Terms: 1,525 USD Auction, Purchase.
Coin Compendium Sighting: CCS11722
Coin Compendium Specimen: CC10047
Coin Compendium Type: CCT47
Mintage:

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